Duanyang Zhao: Hi, everyone my name is Duanyang Zhao and I am here with Jeffrey Chen for our Podcast of the“Yo is this..?”. We decided our theme to be the“Yo Is This Sexist?” . Let’s start off from a personal experience. At the end of July 2018, I found that a female friend of me disclosed on Chinese social media that she had been sexually harassed by a well-known figure in media. After revealing this, she ended up to be the victims of threats of the sexual offenders, and abuses from netizen. Her misfortune really surprised me. Recently, a number of well-known personalities in various circles were exposed to conduct sexual harassment towards others. Among these women were the famous young Chinese female. Those incidents caused me to pay attention to China’s sexual harassment issues.
Jeffrey Chen: It is so sad to hear such a story. Several days ago, I saw similar articles about women being sexually assaulted. It is in fact one of the most terrible experiences of those female, which is worsened by gender culture in China. And in general, when a woman in China is divorced, she has kept it as a secret; if she is sexually harassed, she will be ashamed of it, and she dares not speak to anyone. I don’t know exactly how it was formed, but it has led to many women ‘s to have a painful and suppressed life.
Duanyang Zhao: This reminds me a question that for Chinese women, what does sexual behavior mean? Different from that of the United States, because China has been conservative about sex for a long time, women attach great importance to the concept of chastity. Women are not allowed to have sex with others before and after marriage, which is called chaste. By contrast, men can marry several women. In modern society, although these strict Confucian rules have disappeared, the potential impact is still far-reaching, especially the male chauvinism has not changed.
Jeffrey Chen: I have some similar feelings with you. Just as Simone de Beauvoir said, women, regarded as the other sex by men, have been a vulnerable group, which granted men power. Men are superior to women, and it has been so for thousands of years in history. Now, it is still an era of patriarchy. Although it is now calling for equality between men and women, in fact, inequality is everywhere. First, in the family, it is considered natural and justified for women to undertake housework. Men who participate occasionally will be praised and considered to be a good man. And women’s contribution to the family is considered to be normal and natural.Women take on housework, take part in work and social affairs, and then take care of children and bear children. Women in this era bear greater pressure than women in any era.
Duanyang Zhao: Yes, it does. The increase in the status of women and the increase in social participation seem to have improved the status of women. But at its core, this society discriminates against women. This explains why when women are sexually assaulted, most people dare not stand up to testify, defend their rights.
Jeffrey Chen: I quite agree with you. Public opinion puts sexually assaulted women in a special position. She is not a person, but an object to be viewed. They define those harmed women in a way that obviously victimized them. They are viewed to be different from other women. Discrimination is justified. This would cause more profound mental injury. Compared to the original physical injury, the aftermath is lasting, and the pressure from community caused after the disclosure can persecute the victims for a lifetime. Those facts are terrifying for those women.
Duanyang Zhao: It seems that the society’s perception of this incident and the reactions of people around it are the most harmful. It was the second serious injury for those females and it was difficult to recover. Therefore, many harmed women would rather tolerate it silently than fight against it, causing the offenders to succeed in harming women again and again.
Jeffrey Chen: In my opinion, the most basic cause of behind those social injustices between men and women is the imbalance of social forces. It is in this context that “systematic injustice” began to appear. The formation of this social state of men and women is very harmful and it begins to destroy the bottom line of social life. What is the bottom line of society? It is the most basic norm that must be followed regardless of factors such as morality and belief.
Duanyang Zhao: As a result, the overall social atmosphere has become very sensitive, even to extremes. Many men have also developed female phobia and have taken actions to keep distance with female colleagues. They are even reluctant to call female colleagues during company dinners. One male friend once said that men should avoid contact with any other women or get along with women alone, and try to avoid physical contact and other actions to avoid being misunderstood. To treat women as potential tempts is also gender discrimination.
Jeffrey Chen: We must see that justice is the result of a game of relatively balanced social forces. Just like the gap between the rich and the poor, the gap between the rich and the poor must not be seen as the result of accidental policy mistakes. Why under the same policy, one group of people benefited while another group suffers? Because the ability of different social forces to fight for their own interests is out of balance. Different groups have different abilities to fight for their own interests.
Duanyang Zhao: Yes, I quite agree with you. And in addition to relatively balanced social forces, there must be the existence of transcendental social forces, that is, the existence of a transcendent entity, including government and laws. I don’t quite understand why we always think that feminists needs to create a set of rules through gaming with different sides, when there are no rules at all. In the first wave of feminism, the second wave of feminism, and the third wave of feminism, each wave has specific and different interests, and sometimes it seems to be inconsistent. But basically the next wave of movement is based on the critical reflection of the previous wave of movement, and overall it is a tortuous advance. In fact, others already have mature rules. Therefore, the existence of an entity that is transcendent and thus impartial can prevent the unfairness of social life and prevent the unfair order from dominating us in unjust social life.
Jeffrey Chen: The movement called “Me Too” may be such an entity. It provides a broader understanding of sexual harassment and sexual assault. Saying “Me Too” means being united with all women with similar experiences. This form also allows it to become a specific and personal statement. More importantly, these testimonies come from women with different stories and different backgrounds. The public, especially men, has undergone a significant change in attitudes towards sexual harassment. The movement has strengthened the obligations of employers. They have paid more attention to the prevention of sexual harassment.
Duanyang Zhao: Being a movement originated from social inequality, it also generated controversy in the process of development. For example, when Trump defended Justice Kavanaugh, he said that the MeToo movement is very dangerous and unfairly threatens the entire powerful class of men. The president’s main reasons are as follows: verbal evidence may not be credible, and false accusations may exist; it is in violation of the principle of presumption of innocence. This stands for social forces against women. So, how do we view the Metoo movement?
Jeffrey Chen: The Me Too movement is indeed viewed as a bold struggle against patriarchy-based trends in society, which are women fighting against patriarchal society. If society’s perception of women does not change, if women cannot break through themselves and stand up bravely, if everyone is a spectator, then all women could be a prey. This Me Too movement is more like creating a bright possibility, letting more people know that they can seek a more positive way to speak up. Men know they want to respect, women know they want to protect themselves and resist. But I think that compared to the hot discussion on the Me Too movement on the Internet, I am more inclined to resort to the law.
Duanyang Zhao: I prefer that both parties protect their rights through legal means. It can also be said that the Metoo movement has promoted the improvement and progress of legal system for preventing sexual harassment to a certain extent. It is necessary that we have indeed begun to explore the future direction of China’s Me Too movement at a deeper level. Now that a lot of posts in the social media have been forwarded, with the offenders being criticized, or even abused on the Internet, what shall we do after this? The Me Too movement originated in the United States means to respect women’s basic rights and further pursue gender equality. This is also true in China. The feminist movement is an equal rights movement. How to connect the Me Too movement to equal rights and improve it from all aspects of the social level is a far more important topic to be faced by people after the movement.