In this episode we define the “R” in “CARES” – rest. While sleep is a very important aspect of rest, the full potential of rest is dynamic and unique to each person. We begin by discussing rest and then you’ll hear a discussion with a current HRS student about what rest looks like for her, and we encourage listeners to think about what rest looks like for them. Our thanks to Gretchen Murray for joining us on this episode.

Transcript

Hi everyone! Welcome back to the HRS CARES podcast! I’m Lisa Hayes, an embedded counselor here at HRS and your host for this month’s podcast. Thank you so much to everyone who has been listening to the podcast series-we hope that our conversations have been interesting and encouraged you to continue these conversations with your friends, your family, and our community. If you are new to the podcast, I am excited to welcome you and if you enjoy our discussion today, I’d really encourage you to go back and listen to our earlier episodes. As a quick reminder, the HRS CARES program was created to support you as you navigate the ongoing challenges of being a student in today’s world. Our CARES acronym stands for Compassion, Attitude, Rest, Embrace and Self-Kindness. This month, we’re focusing on the “R” in our CARES acronym which represents Rest. Okay, let’s get started.

What does rest really mean? What comes up for you when you hear the word rest? Often when people think about rest, they immediately associate it with sleep-in our conversation today we hope to stretch and explore the idea of rest beyond sleep. Now, don’t get me wrong, sleep is wonderful and healthy and something that we all need—it is, in fact a very important aspect of rest. But the full potential of rest is dynamic. It’s unique to each person. Rest is the practice of releasing our focus on the stressful, draining, and outcome driven activities of our life. Rest is not about our obligations to assignments, to schedules, to deadlines. Rest is where we find space for relaxation, repair and recovery. Rest allows us the opportunity to check in, to connect with ourselves, and be more present.

In this months’ episode, you’ll hear a discussion that I had with and HRS student, Gretchen Murray. Gretchen and I met and explored what rest looks like for her now, what is has looked like in the past and what she is hoping it will look like in the future. I’d encourage you to think about your own responses to the questions Gretchen and I explore.

1. When do you feel the most at rest?
2. What does rest really look like for you?
3. What are some of the messages that you have received throughout your life about rest?
4. How do you feel rest is impacted by your current academic reality?
5. What have you done to find more rest and balance in your life? What gets in the way of that balance for you?
6. What are your rest goals/hopes?

I hope you enjoy the conversation that Gretchen and I had, and I’m also hoping for everyone listening that you’re able to find more room for rest in your life. Okay, so here’s the interview. Enjoy.

Interview

Lisa Hayes: Thanks so much everyone for tuning in for our conversation about rest. We are joined by Gretchen Murray who is a student here at HRS and has agreed to meet with us and talk a bit about rest and the way that it shows up in her life. So Gretchen, if you might, go ahead and introduce yourself and then we’ll get going.

Gretchen Murray: Yeah. Hi. Thank you so much for having me today. I’m super excited about this and I find it kind of funny when one of the HRS faculty had asked me if I wanted to participate and told me it would be about rest. I thought it was kind of ironic because I feel like I’m not always the best at finding rest and you know, with the ways. Being a student – You know, there are periods of times where you get more rest versus less rest. And that week I had been pushing really hard academically, so I felt like I wasn’t getting much rest. So I thought it was really ironic, but I’m really excited to talk more about it because I’ve been able to reflect since then. But let me introduce myself a little more. Like Lisa said, my name is Gretchen Murray and I am an undergraduate student in HRS’s Medical Dietetics program. I’m getting ready to graduate in May and become a registered dietitian and hopefully someday a professor myself. So who knows? I might return to HRS someday.

Lisa Hayes: Exciting. Thanks for just talking about that. When someone asks you about something and you’re like, oh, okay. Yeah. No, I mean, I’d love to talk about rest even if right now, you know, my body isn’t necessarily getting what it needs. I think that’s one of the reasons we really wanted to bring a student into this conversation, because we know that there are some realities around student life and a bit of this kind of like grinding and getting things done that often pulls us away from some of the ways that we would like to be rested and just generally engaged in self-care. So, I think that’s really important actually for you to have been asked that question and have a chance to reflect on how rest is really, truly looking in your life as a student who’s approaching graduation and has been really successful in their program. So I’m glad you’re here and I’m excited to hear some of your perspectives and where you’ve been reflecting on rest. So just as a reminder to folks listening, the HRS CARES programing is going to cover a different topic as we kind of move along. And the CARES part is an acronym and it stands for compassion, attitude, rest, embrace and self-kindness. And so we are talking about the R and cares for rest. And so that’ll be our focus for this month. So, I’m wondering, Gretchen, maybe if we can just talk a little bit about, you know, we were thinking a bit about when you’re not feeling very rested, and things are chaotic or demanding of you. But I’m wondering like, when do you feel most rested as you’ve been thinking about resting your life? And we know that rest includes sleep, but it’s also more than sleep, right? It’s about a relaxation or a kind of unplugging. So, I’m just curious, when do you feel most at rest.

Gretchen Murray: Right? Yeah, I definitely I think like the average person, I feel more rested when I do have more sleep. That’s kind of a given. But I think regardless of how much sleep someone gets when there’s a lot going on in their life, when there are things constantly on their mind, their body is constantly moving, it can still be hard to find rest. Regardless of how much sleep you get, you can still be pretty exhausted, pretty fatigued. And so yeah, what you already said about resting being different than sleep, I think is a very important differentiation to make. So that being said, me personally, I think I feel most at rest whenever I’m able to find a way to clear my mind or kind of just get everything out of my head, whether that’s for me personally, graduation coming up. So, you know, finding a job, passing the registered dietitian exam, finding a place to live, passing finals, even getting to the point of graduation and different things like that. And so if I’m able to find a way to get all of that out of my head and just be able to focus on what’s happening here and now instead of focusing on the future or the past. And yeah, so just being able to clear my mind. And so for me personally, that can be a variety of different things. And I think that kind of depends on my schedule, what I have going on, what I have time for. But some that immediately come to mind personally are going for a run, playing soccer, playing guitar. I really like that, reading different things like that. And so I think one thing that as I was reflecting on the rest I do or don’t get, I originally was thinking along the effects of rest means I’m not doing anything. I’m just relaxing, watching TV, I’m sleeping, taking a nap, different things like that. And so while I think that may be most people’s first idea of rest, as I reflected on it more. You know, some days I may not have time to just sit around and watch TV, but I do have time to get my exercise in and go for a run. And when I’m on that run, I, you know, I put on my headphones and I just get in the groove and I’m not focused on school for that hour. I’m running. I’m not focused on school. I’m not focused on my career. I’m not focused on what I have to do later. And by the end of that, even though, you know, I’ve exercised and I may have physically exerted more energy, I think mentally it does a lot.

Lisa Hayes: Yeah, that’s an awesome way to think about it. Just as you were talking like I think there’s a way to think about being like rested in awareness, right, where you’re saying like maybe I’m reading or engaging in something. But I also think it’s interesting to think about this kind of like mental rest, right? This idea where you’re saying, yeah, my body is engaged in activity, but I’m still allowing myself to kind of shift out of this real like outcome driven, you know, like productivity or greater, that sort of thing, and just drift a bit more into your own awareness or just into pleasure seeking, right? Like I’m listening to music, I’m feeling accomplished. I think that’s really interesting because I do think you’re right that people initially think about rest as like sleeping or the absence of urgency, right? The absence of behavior or the absence in that way. Really, most people, I think you have a culture or a practice of rest. It’s an active pursuit, right. Even if it is watching television, like it’s choosing to do it, which I think often creates a space for us to evaluate, like what’s in my mind for like you were saying, like, what’s my schedule? What do I have space for? Like, how can I create space for my body to decompress a bit and just to feel rested? I think that’s that’s a really interesting way because I do think a lot of students that I talk to you are frankly very busy. You know, I mean, some of the schedules that y’all are carrying around are really, truly impressive. And I’m always so interested in how to how you navigate that and what that might look like. And so I’m wondering for you, like, how has moving through this process of being a student affected your relationship to rest or the ways that you’re able to find rest?

Gretchen Murray: Yeah. Yeah. So I think one thing it’s made me realize is that I’m not going to get the same amount of rest each day, each week, each month, each period of life. I kind of hinted on this earlier when we were speaking at the beginning of the week that the HRS faculty member, Dr. Nelms reached out to me about participating in this podcast. My faculty advisor for my undergraduate thesis and I were working on submitting a publication, and so I was in my dietetic internship from roughly 9 to 5. So I came home, I worked on that publication until midnight 1 a.m. and then I woke up and I did it again the next day, you know. So that week, not restful. Absolutely not restful. But I think one thing that moving through the different phases of being a student, whether that’s a phase of this week, I have three finals next week I’m done with finals, whether it’s a short-term change like that or whether it’s a change from, say, my freshman year to my senior year, obviously freshman year, it’s a lot of Gen Z. It’s in my own personal experience. It was a lot easier freshman year than it is in my last year here, and I know sometimes other students will say otherwise. They’ll say, I know I just kind of skated through my senior year, but I think a lot of our students with the type of programs were in our last year are very, very time consuming. So I think recognizing that even if I do not have the rest that I want to in this moment, it’s not going to last forever because things change. And so I think I’ve kind of had to adapt to those different changes in my life and adapt the type of rest I get, if that makes sense. So, you know, mentioning going for a run, playing soccer or playing guitar or stuff like that. So that week that I was referring to, I did not have time to go for a run. I did not go for a run a single time that week, but it only takes 5 minutes at most for me to pick up my guitar and play one song. Yeah. Having to adapt that form of rest is okay and they can both be restful in different ways and whatever. Sometimes you just have to do whatever is appropriate in the situation and. Now that we have submitted our manuscripts. I now have more time to go for a run and get more sleep and different things like that. And I think just recognizing that it’s not going to last forever.

Lisa Hayes: Yeah. Congratulations, by the way, for getting that submitted. That’s quick.

Gretchen Murray: Thank you.

Lisa Hayes: Thank you. And I think I really just like the way you’re thinking about it, because it makes me think a little bit about this idea of, like, balance and balance and being a part of rest. But what I really like about it too, I was thinking as you were talking about like soccer or playing the guitar, is that I think an awareness of our like what we do and how we are and what our world looks like really allows us to access different parts of our identity as well. And I think sometimes there is rest embedded in that, right? If you’re kind of like really focusing on this thing in one place, dominantly in your life. And maybe that’s an academic capacity where you’re like me and I’m really like pushing and I have lots of demands just thinking about engaging in a creative practice where you’re saying, okay, I don’t have time for a run, but like 5 minutes just to like activate and engage a different part of my body and my brain and just to kind of give that other piece of my brain a rest. I do think there’s something in that about, you know, thinking about how to show up and to say, okay, there are things that maybe feel like they need to get done in my life. But are there strategic ways that I can have like a real bucket full of things that I can do that allow me to kind of pick.   Right and say, okay, this week is not a run time- I can’t get it in there or you know, I think for some folks when we think about rest or relaxation, I think often in media those things are presented as something that’s like kind of extraordinary in your schedule, like going to a spa or you know, and some of that.

Gretchen Murray: Is just.

Lisa Hayes: Talking about, you know, people will say like, there’s no way. Like, I’m barely like doing my nighttime, you know, ritual of, like, cleaning my face and getting into bed at the right time, you know? And so I think some folks that feels so far from what they’re doing that they think to themselves, look, unless I can stop everything, then I’m not able to really rest. And that rest feels really far from where they are in their life. And so I like this perspective that you’re bringing of like, hey, we can fit it in there. We have enough. If there’s enough diversity of like self-care skills, you can find things that have different requirements, that take up different time, that are more realistic, you know, in the schedule that you have. Because I think some of it is. Can we insist on rest? And can we say to ourselves, Hey, I know my body, my body’s ability to function is better when I’m better and when I’m rested and when I’m kind of taking care of my body’s need to not always be going and pushing. Yeah, that’s so interesting. I’m wondering, like, I’m interested in how you designed that in your mind. And I’m wondering throughout your life, like where have you gotten messages on rest? Like have you seen people rest very well or do you see it kind of modeled for you at each HRS? or like where are you getting, you know, where have you gotten these messages that have allowed you to come up with like kind of a plan around rest?

Gretchen Murray: Yeah. So I think growing up, my parents, my father was not good at rest. He is an airline pilot. He is always on the go. And when he’s not when he’s not flying, he’s riding his bike or different things like that. And so I think as a kid, I would have thought he’s not getting rest. But there was one point. It was actually. It may have been six months ago. And this, I think, is kind of where I got this idea of rest not having to be sleep or not having to be completely. Physically in one spot for several hours. You now be at a spa. Different things like that. I was telling my dad, you know, oh, school is just making me exhausted. I’m so tired. I don’t have time for sleep. I don’t have time to just watch TV. I don’t have time for this. And you know, he said to me, Well, aren’t you playing on a rec soccer team? And I was like, Yeah, but that’s not rest, Dad, I’m working out, that’s exercise, that’s not rest. And you know, he said to me, Do what? Why can’t that be rest for you? And, you know, I once again argued, well, it’s a lot of work. It’s tiring, you know, how could that be rest? And he said, you know, Gretchen, I don’t always just go for a bike ride because because I want to exercise. Of course, it adds that benefit to it. But he told me it was a point at which he felt at rest because he is able to do something he enjoys, he’s able to get his mind off of work, off of different life stressors. And I think that kind of puts the idea in my head originally of rest doesn’t need to be sleep. But then I think in addition to that, I personally I’ve gone through mental health therapy myself and I absolutely adore my therapist. She’s phenomenal. And she said to me one time, you know, Gretchen, you need more rest. And I said, well, obviously, you know, thank you. I’m an undergraduate student. I have so much going on. I know I need more rest. Where do you expect me to do that? And she suggested, I think. I think originally, a long time ago before she knew me, that while she had suggested mindfulness techniques or meditation or different things like that, and I think going back to what you said earlier of having to know yourself and your identity and different things that you personally take pleasure in. Once we have this conversation again, once she got to know me bett- or- Got to know me better. Excuse me, she said. You know, I was so wrong in telling you to do that for a rest, because with you that’s just going to stress you out more. You’re going to you’re not going to be able to get things out of your head. That’s not going to be restful for you.

And so, you know, now, if she is trying to suggest that I get more rest, she knows, to suggest, you know, some of these things I already mentioned, whether that’s going for a run or playing soccer. And so I think between my dad and her, they have put some really good ideas on rest in my head. But I think outside of that, the messages from society, from the media, different things like that. I like you said, there’s this concept that in order to get rest, you have to have a big chunk of time in order to do it, to go to the spa, to go get a massage, to go lay out in the sun. I don’t know. There’s it’s all these big things. And I think it’s really interesting because with I think with the pandemic and with how things have shifted and people have grown to realize how fatiguing just the life stressors of the pandemic, regardless of whether you’re a full-time working adult, you are a college student, you are a elementary schooler, or regardless of where you’re at, you know, we all need to find rest. And so I think that’s been one good thing that I’ve seen a lot more of in the media is recognizing that a lot of people are getting burnt out. I think especially when it applies to HRS, I know the health field, health care people are burning out like crazy. And so I think there’s been a new sense or a realization of the importance of rest. Whereas I feel like maybe two, three years ago, more of what I personally what I’ve heard on rest and what I personally thought was that if I am taking time for a rest, then I am not productive. I’m not productive, therefore I’m not going to be successful or I’m not trying hard enough. If I take time for rest. And so I think this new shift in mindset and mindset that a lot of the world is having of rest being important. You know, that actually is going to make us ten times more successful, more productive and much better moving forward than this original concept of, Oh, I’m taking rest, therefore I’m not working hard enough.

Lisa Hayes: I think that’s such an extraordinary awareness, just particularly in these kind of like medical communities. But I agree. I mean, I think the messages that I’ve received about risks throughout my adult career has been kind of like I have to earn it, right? This idea that it becomes the destination, if you work enough, then you can take a vacation. If you work enough, then you can have a weekend. And I think what I really feel a little bit relieved, frankly, hearing from you as someone who’s getting ready to kind of formally join a workforce is this idea that rest is the fuel, right? We cannot wait to get it. We have to have it as we’re working so that we can have a higher quality of life. Because I you know, I do think often when I work with folks, you know, it’s strange where we’re getting these messages and a lot of folks really do feel like self-care and rest is the absence of productivity. It’s I’m doing nothing. And I think for any of us who have tried hard to bring it into our life, it is really something where even doing nothing is really doing something and it’s giving your body opportunity to sit in awareness. And so, like, for instance, I was smiling when you were talking about being encouraged around mindfulness practice or meditation. You know, I think there are ways for a mindfulness practice to really also be active. And so I’m thinking to myself, like, it sounds to me like you’re engaging in some mindfulness like awareness and existence while running right or while doing some of these other things. And so it is really about finding the fit. Within any practice where you’d say, Hey, look, this is not a way that I appreciate, you know, meditation or mindfulness practice, but opening up and being curious about, you know, what can I what can I do without by way of messaging where you could say like, hey, you know what? Like, I just think, like, burnout is a real thing. And we are seeing it and we are seeing the effects of it. And I love that you included like children in that, right? Because all of us mean it doesn’t necessarily matter like how we perceive or experience the demands of our life.

But, you know, I think you’re right that this idea of having a gentle awareness of like, hey, what does my body need and how can I get it to be productive is by allowing it to have moments of rest, which for some people like yourself, you’re like, my rest is often active that I’m doing things. I’m able to rest a part of my life or a part of my mind, but I’m able to actively engage in something. And for other people, you know, it could be like quiet contemplation or really just sitting and restful awareness and observing their environment and, you know, whatever that is. I liked when you laughed, you were like maybe sitting in the sun. You know, I, I think I tend to have a more active rest culture myself. And so I agree, like, okay, I’m just sitting here, maybe this will work. But I think, I think there are lots of ways. And when I like about what I’m hearing you say, that almost feels like it’s very intentional. Right. And we are setting an intention and you’re saying, hey, I’m going to find the space for rest. I recognize the importance, right? I’m unwilling to operate in this burnout culture where I’m being asked to just continuously push and push and push without rest. And I think that’s the piece around pulling some relief for you and some happiness and some gratitude for your dad and your therapist and, you know, just generally for your own mind and kind of working through that because I think it’s really interesting. I’m wondering if you have a thing to say about it, like how are you experiencing that with like your friends, like peers, like people your age? Are you finding that y’all are like talking about rest and burnout or, you know, are you giving each other feedback about like, hey, maybe think about putting down that part of yourself, you know, for an hour and going for a run with me. Or I’m just curious, like, how are you finding those conversations with friends?

Gretchen Murray: Yeah, I think to be completely honest, I think I’m thinking about a lot of my classmates. It’s a lot of, oh, my goodness, we’re also exhausted. We’re doing stuff all the time. We are so busy with our dietetic internship, we’re so busy with class. And I think a lot of what I hear my classmates say and I have no doubt that I fall victim to this and say it as well. It’s, you know, originally say a couple of weeks ago, it would have been like, okay, but spring break is then a couple or spring break is next week. So then we’ll. Well, find rest and then now it’s okay. But graduation is in a couple of weeks and thinking about that’s actually really interesting and I think speaks to the fact that although I had mentioned earlier, we go through phases where we have more or less rest for us. I think finding the time to do it no matter where you are is extremely important because I think no matter what, you’ll always be thinking about what’s coming next. So, for example. Originally I was like, okay, I’ll get to spring break and then I’ll find rest. Well, I got to spring break. Did I find as much rest as I wanted to? Probably not. So now it’s like, okay, I’ll wait until graduation and then I’ll find rest. But then after graduation, I’m going to be focused on taking the registered dietitian exam and then finding a job. So it’s like, okay, once I get a job, then I can find rest. And so I think that kind of speaks back to what we spoke about earlier of finding what’s going to work for you in that moment, whether that’s taking 5 minutes to go for a walk outside because you only have 5 minutes or, you know, going to bed early, I don’t know. It can be so many different things and everybody’s life is different. And I think that is one thing that’s been really interesting in other conversations I’ve had. So, for example. My roommate, one of my roommates, one of her go to relaxation techniques is I’m just going to lie in bed and not do anything. And it works for her. And that’s great. But that would drive me insane. You know, I would not find that restful because my mind would be racing about everything that I am not doing or everything that I should be doing. And yet that’s super restful to her. But then with her, if she if she chose to go for a run, you know, she might think the same exact saying this is not restful at all. This is exhausting. And so, yeah, it definitely speaks to the fact that different people are going to have different things that will help them find rest. And finding those that work for you is of utmost importance.

Lisa Hayes: Yeah. And I think to thinking about like the difference in personality, but also when you’re talking about these very real goals that you have. Right. And of course, we want you to have those goals. We want you to be focused on graduation and healthy and happy employment. But I do think sometimes rest is about dropping from some of that really outcome driven stuff, right? That very kind of like future anchored, future satisfaction and just really focusing on like what right now in this moment would help me to feel more relaxed, more connected to my body, more present in my friendships and relationships. And I think, you know, for folks who are maybe listening to this or folks who have often been encouraged to rest and maybe they’ve been encouraged in ways that sound awful, you know, to them, they’ve been encouraged and they’re like, I don’t have space for that. Or That doesn’t feel restful at all to me. So, you know, maybe even just thinking, have you ever been able to just sit and ask yourself in a moment to kind of take a breath and sit and say, okay, what right now, in this moment could help me to feel more centered, more grounded, more rested, and less engaged in this really kind of like outcome. What’s next? What’s next kind of vibe? Because I do think if you keep waiting for rest to find you, you might be waiting for a long time. So I think some of what I’m hearing are like, okay, wait. Spring break is going to happen or graduation is going to happen. And I think some of what’s interesting is just kind of like hearing you work through that in your mind. We were like, But wait, I’m going to be studying for this exam or I’m going to be looking for employment. And so it almost kind of pulls a little bit at the integrity of that thought where people are like, Oh, maybe I should just go ahead and go for a run. Maybe I should go ahead and find a way right now to plug it in because you’ll need to find other ways. I’m sure you know, when you’re looking for work or when you’re starting a new job and just acclimating, there might be other things that feel like rest to you then.

But I think you’re right. I think lots of us, myself included, right. If we’re all here in vulnerability. Right. Can get into the place where it’s like, you know what, the day is crazy, but next week is easy. Writing and trying to find like, can I find a better balance? Can I find a way to say, Hey, even on a crazy week, I’m going to ask myself, what else could I do? What else could I try? Could I take my dog for a walk? Could I eat lunch outside? Could I call someone who I’ve missed and just not had the time to catch up with? Could I just sit in awareness and take some deep breaths? And so I think, you know, I just really I’m really appreciating that from you. Just this idea of like, hey, it’s shifted and changed for me, but it’s also different depending on where I am and trying to just kind of like pull in an awareness of like, hey, I can’t keep pushing it and waiting for it. And my hope might even be that that might be something that falls into your conversations. You know, when you’re hanging out with people, when you’re in a work environment and, you know, you just see people who I think often when we get into these work or academic environments, we can kind of sense the people around us who are burning out and we can sense a change in their attitude or their energy and maybe just finding some language as a community to encourage folks in to gently just offer like, hey, I’m wondering, you know, is there any way you could fit something in for yourself that might help you to feel more rested or grounded or just kind of at your best, you know, which I think is the easiest way to do things and to complete tasks and to do things that are hard is to be at our best. Yeah.

Gretchen Murray: Yeah, definitely. I think it’s something that although it has been spoken about more recently than I think it has in the past, I think we still have a long ways to go, myself included. But if we’re able to have those conversations or. You know, I don’t have the exact answer to this, but somehow if there is a collaborative effort, if someone says, I don’t know how I personally feel rested outside of sleep or taking a nap, but I don’t have time for that, or I only feel rest when I am able to take my dog for a walk. But if that’s not appropriate in the moment and so then they feel I’m just they give up, you know, I’m not going to be able to find rest. I think if we’re able to really make that into a collaborative effort and help each other find new ways to find rest, I think could be really beneficial not only as individuals but as a general society, because the more well-rested everyone is, I think the better off we’re all going to be. Going back to that, the restlessness. Increasing, increasing productivity.

Lisa Hayes: Yeah, absolutely. And I think most things are best done in community. Right. I think when we are in healthy communities, we are healthier. And so we do a lot of modeling and we’re able to kind of connect with each other and to really check in with each other about it. And so I think if there’s any wish and certainly, you know, just as a program like HRC cares, that’s why we’re asking for you to give us time. Right. Obviously, we talked before we started recording about how, you know, I have such gratitude for the time you’re giving, because even as we’re talking about resting, you’re talking about your schedule, right? Being here and having this conversation is is kind of something that you have to plan for and it’s something that you’re kind of generously giving time. But I think we’re all kind of showing up in these conversations because if we can hold this space for our community and we can say, hey, listen, you know, this matters and it matters to me and it matters to us. And we want to we want to find a place to start having these conversations. And it’s like one of my biggest hopes is that someone hears this that wasn’t having space in their life to think about it. Right. And that is able to hear some of your examples or is able to just kind of connect a bit with some things that you’ve said and is able to think bit differently about rest. And I really think that wanting to hold a space for our community and for our community is healthy, then we really have a way to like hold hands and embrace each other and just kind of look out for each other, which would be amazing to do because I know the work that you all are doing a students is extraordinary, but in this larger sense of it, you know, working in health care and providing care and concern and services for the community. Right. It is kind of we need you to do it. We need you to do it well. We need you to be healthy.

And so I think it’s even more important in health care communities to have these conversations and to feel like there are ways to rest. And I think I’d be a bad therapist if I didn’t say that. You might even think about writing a list of ways that you can rest, just as a reminder, right? So like you were saying, hey, I’m like, I love walking my dog. But you’re right, I don’t always have space for that or time for it. And so if we have if we’re able to kind of hold these goals, you know, for rest and what do those look like and what am I hoping I can do? Sometimes it helps. Just like jot him down on a Post-it note, stick it somewhere where you can see it. You know, if you’re having a moment in your life where you can just tell you are like burning hot and fast and you’re like, Wow, I’m so exhausted or I’m feeling irritable or frustrated or, you know, just a little off just to even maybe look at the list and ask yourself, like, is there anything on that list that I can do right now? Like, can I play the guitar for 5 minutes? I mean, if you’re like, I don’t have, you know, space to do the rest. But I think that’s I don’t know. I’m really pretty inspired by your disposition. I’m thinking to myself like, Okay, that’s awesome. I’m hoping that your energy in this conversation is happening in community and in different settings where people are working hard and doing their best.

Gretchen Murray: Yeah. Thank you. This this has been this is fun because like I said, I think before this, before Dr. Nelms had brought this up to me, I. Other than the conversation I had had with my dad about it or speaking with my therapist about it, I think I hadn’t had a chance to think about rest beyond sleep. Beyond just pausing. Taking time for myself. Different things like that. And I think just having the chance to talk about it in this way has opened me up to ideas or thoughts that I didn’t even know I had about rest, you know?

Lisa Hayes: Awesome! So I think, you know, I do want to thank you for your time and your generosity and just being willing to kind of talk a bit about how rest has shown up for you and what you might be thinking about in the future for us. But I’m also just hoping that this conversation grows other conversations in your life or in the lives of people who are listening, and that maybe as a community we’re able just to kind of hold each other up and make sure that we’re encouraging and supporting a really healthy life and a life that has access to rest and recovery. So that we can kind of be at our best. So thank you so, so much. It’s been such a pleasure talking with you truly. Such a good time.

Gretchen Murray: It’s been awesome. Thank you so much for allowing me to do this.