Shared from another section of the course.
Hegel’s text, published in the early 19th century, discusses the master-slave dialectic. This is the idea that man establishes his “self-consciousness” by identifying those apart from him as the “other” or “non-I”. De Beauvoir’s text, published in 1949, takes this dialectic and applies it to male and female relationships. Therefore, I will discuss such relationships in the time period of De Beauvoir’s text (specifically 1930s and 40s) in order to provide context.
In the early 1930s and prior to, a “real man” was typically seen as a person with pure authority and power, who was tasked with decision making for women (Encyclopedia.com), while women were seen as domestic and the primary caretaker. However, the Depression (1929-1939) brought about a change in this dynamic with the increased dependence on women. Many of the “pink collar” jobs were impacted less by the Depression than jobs in the heavy industry, which men typically took on (Encyclopedia.com). Still, women and men were placed in completely different categories, with women still facing harsh restrictions. Many men during this time felt threatened and shamed by their “lost masculinity” and increasing dependence on women. Due to this, many films which highlight naive and domestic women, such as the famous Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs (1938), emerged (Maslin). It’s important to note that such films attempted to reverse the reality for men in the Depression by offering a woman who was dependent on a man.
Image of Snow White from the film Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs
WWII (1939-1945) changed gender roles in several ways. As more men were deployed in the war, the need for labor from women at the homefront increased. One of the most popular war icons was Rosie the Riveter. She represented a strong, assertive woman who worked during WWII. Although many women still worked “pink collar” jobs, WWII opened up job opportunities in areas previously designated to men, such as the heavy industry and wartime production plants (The National WWII Museum ). Still, employers attempted to maintain pre-war gender roles by separating females and males in the workplace and paying women lower wages. After the war, many women were pushed out of their previous, higher wage jobs into less secure, “pink collar” jobs in an attempt to give men back their jobs (May). Nonetheless, it is undeniable that there was a change in and questioning of previously set gender roles during the time of De Beauvoir’s text.
“We Can Do It!” Poster closely associated with Rosie the Riveter
Citations:
Beauvoir, Simone de, and Caroline Toy. The Second Sex.
“Gender on the Home Front.” The National WWII Museum | New Orleans, The National World War II Museum, www.nationalww2museum.org/war/articles/gender-home-front.
“Gender Roles and Sexual Relations, Impact of the Great Depression on .” Encyclopedia of the Great Depression. . Encyclopedia.com. 16 Aug. 2021 <https://www.encyclopedia.com>.
Kojève, Alexandre, and Raymond Queneau. Introduction to the Reading of Hegel: Lectures on the Phenomenology of Spirit. New York: Basic Books, 1969
Maslin, Janet. “Snow White Is No Feminist.” The New York Times, The New York Times, 19 July 1987, www.nytimes.com/1987/07/19/movies/film-view-snow-white-is-no-feminist.html.
May, Elaine Tyler. “How Did World War II Change Women’s Employment Possibilities?” PBS, Public Broadcasting Service, www.pbs.org/wgbh/americanexperience/features/tupperwaremay/#:~:text=How%20did%20World%20War%20II,been%20previously%20closed%20to%20women.
Sharpsteen, Ben, et al. Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs. RKO Radio Pictures, 1937.
“‘We Can Do It!”.” National Museum of American History, americanhistory.si.edu/collections/search/object/nmah_538122.
I found your take on Snow White very interesting. I had never looked at the film in the way that it was made to make men feel better by showing a woman whose life was dependent on a man. I also found it interesting that many women went back to their “pink collar” jobs after the war ended and the men returned home. It goes to show how majority of the female population was brainwashed to think that they couldn’t do the men’s jobs as well and that those type of jobs belonged solely to the male population.
I recognized the image of Rosie the Riveter right away. I agree that she looks like a strong and assertive woman. I can see why women during this time looked up to her for strength. They gave women the belief that they could be like Rosie the Riveter. I did not realize all the opportunities women had during WWII when many labor jobs opened up because of men going to war.
I absolutely love your take on this. I think that throughout history, women’s roles have greatly changed and even became huge providers for their families. As you mentioned, one of the biggest turning points was WWI. While you talked about women going into work different from men I want to add that during this time it was also a huge revolution for LGBT+ history. While women were going into the work force, it was actually harder for certain women to get jobs than others. Many look at the was as a revolution for women and while it was, butch lesbians had a harder time getting jobs then femmes, as well as poc! At this point, there was still a lot discrimination against most women unless they were white and straight.
I love the topic that you chose to connect to De Beauvoir’s text! The way that you brought Snow White into the conversation was a great way to connect something that we all know of now to something from back then. I would have never thought that Snow White’s original purpose was to show a woman dependent on a man once again. WWll did change the way gender roles were looked at because women were given jobs that only men were expected to do and they did them well. The things women did kept the homefront stable during WWll, but even when they got home they were stripped of those jobs and given much lower pay than men. There was no justification for the actions taken by men in this time because as time went on they realized they were wrong and the decisions they had made were based off of preconceptions, not abilities.
I definitely agree that there was no justification for these roles being stripped from women even iif women worked and did better at the jobs than men. I’m curious to know if you think these preconceptions are completely gone or what you would do to lessen them.
I really like the fact that you brought up Rosie the Riveter and related it back to how women during WWII were able to work jobs that were male-dominated. For women, this demonstrated great strength and increased women’s earning power. This also allowed women to prove that jobs performed by men are also attainable by women in the workforce. Bringing up Rosie the Riveter was a prime example of women that put work in while men were serving at war. Although women’s employment was only accepted while the war was going on, after the men had returned from war, women were then again designated to their “pink collar” jobs in which their wages had then lowered. Due to women receiving different wages in their “pink collar” compared to their jobs that were male-dominated was discrimination against women.
I actually did not know prior to reading this post that this was an underlying theme in Snow White and that many films during that time tried to sway people from believing in what was inevitably going to happen which is women gaining real independence from men. It is upsetting that the media used these tactics to keep society brainwashed into thinking all women really were like Snow White and that they’d never be anything more. However, thanks to many amazing women in history, like Rosie the Riveter, women were finally able to escape the dependence we were forced to have on men. It may have taken a while, but I think people like Rosie would be proud of where we are today.
It’s amazing how much the gender roles have changed in America since the 30s and 40s. Society today gives women a lot more opportunity and free will on what they can do, and I believe the gap between men and women’s right will continue to close in the near future. I also find notable that films back then tried to limit women independency, like Snow White as you mentioned, while films today actually empower women and support their independency. I wonder how the middle aged men and women of the 30’s and 40’s would react to these present day films of feminism if they were able to watch them.
I believe that there might be women of the 30’s and 40’s that they would love the present day films of feminism if we think about how oppressed they may have felt. About the men I’m pretty sure the majority would not be able to accept such ideas.
Both of the texts that we had for week 2 are interesting and are making you think of evrey day things that you which you take for granted. Although the Beauvoir’s text is actually reflects reality even today. In my opinion there’s still social differences and stereotypes towards women, obviously not as much as the old times. In our days women have more oportunities and that gave also the cgance for them to show how “They can do it” , but you will keep hear things like “you’re running like a girl” or “you are girl you are not gonna make it” or even “you cry like a girl ” . Many people belive that it’s in the nature of men to be like that but I belive that it’s just the stereotypes promoted by society.
I’ve never thought about Snow White like that before but it makes sence if we if we consider when it was released
Being a woman today, it is crazy to think how things have changed from back then. Adding snow white into the text was a very good comparison too connect on how woman have revolutionized into not being so dependent on men and their working power. I believe the typical saying of how woman should “be in kitchens” has definitely toned down, rooting back to the texts of Snow White and Rosie of finally earning the independence. I think still to this day there’s still some discrimination on how much power woman should have to men, but it is because of examples like these that have started to turn around the culture of woman independence.
I loved your take on this! I take being a woman in this time for granted as I mostly get equal rights and opportunities as men. It is very difficult to imagine how much times have changed since before the WW period. I especially enjoyed and learned a lot from your snow-white comparison as most people including me have never thought of snow-white as an independent woman but rather just a Disney character. Although there are many women that have revolution need and opened up numerous platforms for others, there are still sexist phrases that come with being a woman. For example, “you hit like a girl”, or “grow a pair”. These phrases capture a stereotype that no longer exists and also relates to an idea of a single story in a sexist pov. Overall I loved your thinking and the examples really stood out.
I thought this discussion was super interesting. I never knew that Snow White was created with the context of the era in mind and was made with a specific intention to revert the gender role of women back to a more naive and submissive view. I think it is interesting to think about how this shift in gender roles must have affected both male and female identity. As men were losing their previous status as the authority figure, women had to absorb that power figure and probably had a hard time taking on that new status and what came along with it. It is crazy to think about how far this roles have continued to shift to become more equal.
I thought that connecting two very familiar faces like Snow White and Rosie the Riveter was very interesting and connected so well with De Beauvoir’s text. The way the media has portrayed women as naive or submissive has been happening for far too long, and with things like the way the shift started happening during WW2 it opened up those future opportunities and the fight for women to be treated equally, not to take power over men but to be treated as the same person.
I never noticed the ties that Snow White had on the depression times. It is very sad to see how men’s masculinity in the early 1900’s had an effect on women as a whole and the way women were treated. I am glad things have changed and the fight for complete equality exists. I am glad that now people understand the importance of women and their impact on lives.
The approach you took in analyzing Hegel’s philosophy was one I would have never considered because rights for woman have increased in significant ways since the 30s. I do not often consider what my life would have been like if I lived in an earlier decade. By applying Hegel’s principles to history examples we are all familiar with, you made the difficult text easy to digest. Unfortunately many of the workplace inequalities still exist and affect many minorities as well. It is interesting that you used WWI and WWII as examples, because Hegel comments on how without the slave, society would not advance. This is very true of the wartime period, because without help from women, America would not have as great of strength throughout the war. If domestic efforts were not maintained by the work of women, men in battle and men making decisions for the country would not be have had as much power. I also found your mention of Snow White particularly interesting. Because Snow White is a children’s movie, one would not automatically think about its historical background, but they are great examples of women being portrayed in dismissive ways that mimic Hegel’s ‘slave.’
I like how you mentioned the term “pink collar”, which is such an original way of looking at women’s jobs. Your approach by bringing in the movie “Snow White and the Seven Dwarfs” was so original and one that I had not considered. In your blog post when you mentioned that some men felt threatened “and shamed by their lost masculinity”, it made me think of reading from another one of my classes. In the reading, it was explained that men’s jobs tend to be technology originated more than women’s. Many do not recognize women’s jobs as important or beneficial to society because during that period many of the jobs women performed had a lot more private value than exchange value. Although many women’s jobs did not tend to use complex technology they still have to use some form of technology. The technology women use just does not fall into the same category of how we typically define technology. I like how you also brought up Rosie the Riveter and how she was a symbol of hard work for women. On the contrary to what you said, I do not believe women suddenly started to work harder during WWII, I think they have always worked hard within the home. I think what changed during this time is society and their increased acceptance of the women’s role outside of the household.
Additionally, in De Beauvoir’s footnotes, there is a note that highlights men as the “default humans”. However, I do not agree with this. As it says in the footnotes women are often defined by their reproductive capacities. These capacities allow women to have even more important and complex working roles within the household. Their biological responsibilities and jobs set them aside, even though these jobs are often looked over as not as important.
I really liked how you related the time period of Debeaviours work to movies created during that time like Snow White. The relation to Snow White made me think about how Disney continued to make it’s movies based on women being the primary caretakers and needing the rescuing of a man. For example the story of Sleeping Beauty, Aurora’s only hope for waking up from her trance was from the kiss of a prince. I think that this narrative of woman depending on rich and powerful men in movies carries over into society. I do also agree that during war times when women were more respected with good jobs was. amazing but they were really the only ones available to do the work, and eventually were replaced again by the strong powerful men. In recent years I do think there has been an increase in women being seen for more than just a caretaker but I only hope more progress can be made for women’s rights.
This post exemplifies how eye-opening it is to dive deeper into the gender roles in the 1930’s and 40’s; given how obvious others and I previously perceived them to be and the lack of public acknowledgement today to how blatantly ignorant they were. It’s no secret that gender roles have drastically loosened throughout the decades, but to be made aware of the passive aggressiveness seen in the era’s media reflects how engrained these standards were and arguably are to this day. Reading about Snow White and its creation stemming from masculine insecurity is a direct reflection of how undetected, yet harmful gender roles have and can be. Growing up, Snow White was (and is) often idolized by children and understandably so, as she was a Disney princess; by doing this, however, the indoctrination of imposing women to become domestic workers with a sole reliance of a man (in order to become of value), is masked by the glamor of ultimately becoming royalty in the film. That is not to say that the masculinity expected of men was (and is) not damaging, as this expectation only limits the self expression of men, instills a sense of false control and unequivocal power, and encourages the same pattern to continue for generations until corrected.
The tie to snow white was a great example of gender roles and the expectations for women. Princess movies are stepping stones for young girls into what they believe their goals for the future should look like. The creation of these films as a way to stabilize tension between men and working women further perpetuates the concept in our modern day that women should be damsels in distress, naive, and waiting for a man to come and rescue them. It encourages this dynamic to be instilled, idolized even, in young minds. The concept that women exist to appeal to a man’s broken ego. Although there have been pushes to expand what women are seen capable of with the integration of more “modern” princesses”, we still see differences in the workplace as described in reference to WWII. Women are still paid less than the average man, even less so when of a minority. We still see women being pushed for “less important” jobs, noted by the distinct ratio of Men to Women in STEM careers.
I think it is interesting that Snow White was used to influence younger children into thinking that a woman should follow a man. There were many changes and pushes for women’s equality in the years after this, but much of the media still portrayed women in the way Snow White did. This media depiction is so important to shaping the mind’s of younger generations. It wasn’t until recent years that Disney started to show younger girls princesses that do not need to be saved. This is important to today’s society as we still see women pushing for equality of the sexes. The media is starting to focus on issues such as the pay gap and women entering male dominated fields. Exposing the younger generations to real issues and independence without relation to their gender is so important in shaping minds to want to continue to change the discrepancies between different groups.
The status of women has been a hot topic in recent years. Women’s status has also increased rapidly in recent years. More and more people are becoming independent women. I think that’s a good thing because men and women should be equal. It is possible that ancient farming societies treated men and women differently because of their strength. But now, there is nothing in modern society that only men can do women can’t do. I saw Snow White’s story when I was a child but never thought the film’s backstory would be like this. I thought Snow White was a time-honored animation. I didn’t expect this movie to be a modern product.
I have always known that the status of women has been a big and important topic for many people in the recent years. I really love your take on this idea. I thought that the tie to Snow White that you used was a great example of gender roles and the expectations for women. There are many ways that women’s status and roles have changed rapidly in the last couple years, and there are many different social media platforms that post about it to bring the attention, but none of them explained it clearer than Snow White did. Starting kids from a young age and teaching them about the gender roles that this film brings out really well, will help them graduate early from having a lot of stereotypes and gender roles in mind when they grow up. It will help them think about the and bring back to the gender role of women back to a more naive and submissive view. I personally also think that men and women should be equal and they shouldn’t have separate roles. I didn’t think Snow White would be a such a modern movie that could help us with tough times now as well.
It’s quite fascinating that Snow White was intended to have such a profound impact which Im sure it did due to it’s large popularity to this day. Its pretty humurous that they even used dwarfs. To this day there has been many leaps in the media that display this kind of dynamic and it definitely ties great into Hegel’s master-slave dialect.
It’s so crazy that films of the time such as Snow White, that were marketed towards children and families, could serve as anti-feminist propaganda of sorts. By displaying Snow White as such a clueless character, it fed into the belief that women were so dependent on men. This post reminded me that society went above and beyond to try and make the gender discrepancy as wide as possible. A common mental illness diagnosis of the time was hysteria, which was given to women who disobeyed their husbands. And although as time passed the diagnosis became less frequent, it wasn’t until the 1980’s that hysteria stopped being considered a mental illness. Despite all this, it seems in history that every chance women have had the opportunity to prove themselves as equal, they have not only succeeded, but thrived in the role, such as during the Depression and WWII.
I wholeheartedly agree that using children’s films that basically sum up the “fairytale” childhood that so many kids experience for such misogynistic views is appalling. It kind of speaks to how insecure and belittled misogynistic people felt that they resorted to such pitiful strategies. And even though more and more women are speaking up for themselves as more generations occur, there still isn’t enough to battle against the division of the sexes. It is always the Man who gets the final say and the Woman who might not even had had the chance to speak. And while women have had great successes throughout history in showing the world that they are beneath no one, there is still a constant fight to prove themselves alike to others. This boggles me because all people are supposed to be equal, and no one should have to prove something to another just to get respect in society.
The status of women has been, and still very much is huge topic for decades. I feel like it’s gotten better as we’ve seen many independent women but the fight isn’t over yet. The fight for equality still goes on. The modern day media has helped the push for equality which brings to the point about Snow White. I even watched Snow White along with my sister and didn’t know the whole backstory of it. The movie showed a great example of expectations of a women and also gender roles. It’s great that the younger generations get to see it which would sharpen their minds and hopefully as they grow, the topic becomes even more relevant. The media also showed the pay gaps between the two genders which would also expose to the younger generations about the ongoing issue. Also like the addition of the “We can do it” poster during WWII. A truly iconic piece which also changed the gender roles.
The progression of women rights is an epitome of how the Master/slave dialect is based on the the self and the other (two contradicting selves) struggle to coexist while trying to fulfill their own desires. The male chauvinism is nothing but a group of selves identifying the group of the others in terms of social prowess. The dated notion dates back centuries and it is only the recognition of the dialect that helps mend this flawed construct.
I think it is interesting that you chose an article about a children’s movie which has a lot of historical context to it. I had never considered that Snow White is a very sexist film because in the movie she relies on her prince to save her instead of attempting to save herself. I think the timing of the film is also very appropriate because men’s jobs were being infiltrated by women then. It is unbelievable to think that the Rosie the Riveter poster from WWII caused a lot of controversy due to the fact that it was showing off a strong woman. It was a foreign concept to have women serve in the workforce while men were off fighting. These ideas that were formed in the 1930s and 1940s still remain valid today as women still struggle to find equality in the workplace.
The status of women has been a very big topic that has been getting a lot of attention in recent years. I really loved the tie you used to Snow White on gender roles and the expectations for women. The relation to the time this film was released and the meaning behind the story to serve as anti-feminist propaganda is a connection I never made. Princess movies and films made for young kids are the first stepping stones for their beliefs and ideas of the world. The display of Snow White to be so clueless and dependent on men gave young girls the initial thought that they were somehow less than men and were encouraged by this film to believe this. This connection to Snow White during the 1930’s made me realize how society tried to enforce this dynamic and make it widely known that women were somehow “less” than men. Though, I think it is now a vital stepping stone for the recent topic of gender roles to help provide insight that this is in fact not true and men and women are equals. Though we still see women being pushed as “less,” I believe the steps being taken by women in STEM fields has had a huge impact on this belief and is helping to work towards men and women being considered equals.
I always knew, because of history classes, that women ended up having to take on some of the jobs meant for men because they were overseas fighting, but I never thought about how men might view this. I viewed it in a logical sense as it was necessary to use women in order to keep society functioning during the war, and as a woman, I viewed it as a great stepping stone for women to prove to men what they already knew themselves, that they are capable of many things. But from the men’s perspective, one of the biggest parts of their identity, being their masculinity, was being threatened. They saw that they did not have as much power as they thought they did, and in response they sought out ways to keep them in check. I also never really thought of something that seems like just a simple kids movie as a way to subliminally tell young girls that this is the role they are to fulfill.
I didn’t realize that the movie Snow White was a movie that was made to help reverse the mindset of men that were in a depression of their masculinity. That surprised me that they used a Disney Movie to help with gender roles during the 1930’s. However, the one thing that didn’t surprise me was during WWII (World War II) that the United States started relying on women more to fill the jobs of men because of how many men were being deployed to go into war. I believe during that time could have been one of the beginnings of the conversations about women in the workforce. I think that that was the time where women were looked at differently in the employment industry. Gender Roles has been huge topic over the years because of unequal treatment that women receive in the work force.
I love your take on this, as you could clearly see how the gender roles were so different. I never realized how dependent Snow White was on a man in the movie, and how it was all relevant during this time period. It made sense, as the gender roles were women had to be very dependent on men during this time. It was also very interesting with both of your pieces because Rosie the Riveter came out just five years after Snow White. So to see the difference in how women were being shown and how much the gender roles changed in such a short bit was very eye opening, and helped me see a different side I never saw before. Snow White was so dependent, where Rosie the Riveter was very independent was shown to be a strong woman who could do the same things that a man could.
It was interesting to learn that Snow White was used to re-establish gender rolls of that time. The 1930’s were a strenuous time from the war, civil rights, and Great Depression. Rosie the Riveter was used as a marketing tool to enlist more women into the workforce. Being a tool of propaganda that was drawn by a man, Rosie was being used to try to summon interest in working for less money than men in order to support the men at war. Although this did give women the chance to find jobs and make money; they were still stuck with the same systemic issues of being underpaid.